Paying homage to the Cardinal

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16 Responses

  1. arvinsign says:

    I hate the catholic/christian hierarchy(and the hierarchies of any other religious groups) however, i do believe that he deserves (like any other human) some respect after all.

  2. Aaron says:

    I am a Catholic myself and I think touching hearts of the people, Catholic or not, is a miracle. First, it’s hard for the religious to be heard and it’s rare that one puts a religious’s word into his/her heart. -> being a former seminarian (a seminarian is someone who prepares for priesthood)

    I think he should be recommended in the Holy See to be a “blessed”, something lower than a “saint”. As far as I know, if a “blessed” is proved to make 3 or more miracles, the (late) person becomes a “saint”

    Aarons last blog post..Bestfriend

  3. arvinsign says:

    sabi nga ni Nora Aunor “Walang Himala” 🙂 Its hard for the religious to be heard, yes i agree. But its hard for some religious groups too to respect other people’s privacy.

    Respect or paying homage is ok, but more than that is too much already. The Vatican is full of politicians hiding under the cloak of holiness. Its sad too many people are being mislead by this.

    What you are referring to is beatification. John Paul II beatified more than a thousand people during his term, and canonized as saints close to 500 people. A number that is greater than the tally of all his predecessors during the last 5 centuries. Geez.

  4. marga says:

    I was amazed with how the people of Korea paid respect to the late cardinal Kim. From the looks of it, I think he touched many lives. I don’t know anything about the cardinal exactly but I was surprised with the number of people that came to see his body and paid tribute to him.

  5. derwent says:

    the number of people from all walks of life, from all religions or religious affiliations paying respect to the Cardinal is enough to say that there is a miracle.

    as for “me”, religion is your experience of God. whatever we hear, whatever we see or read against people or Leaders of the church (any church) may be discouraging but, yes, they are just humans too. nobody’s perfect but they do their best to be perfect, spiritually perfect. others may have been misled, but let us look also at those who do their best to remain steadfast in their faith and service of the people. and in the end, it will always be about between them and God or between you and “your” God…

    the religious or words of God will only be heard by those who listen with their hearts.

    as for the heirarchy of the churches, like any other institutions, organization is important too.

  6. arvinsign says:

    Don’t get me wrong. I respect this person in the same way im respecting my neighbor (although im not a believer). I admire his devotion as well as his humanitarian work. No question about that.

    But calling this event a miracle on the basis of the number of people who attended (from all walks of life) is a no-no for me. That is too subjective. The reason why so many people are fooled with the doctrines of their religious beliefs is because of this kind of mentality. You can take the “Fiesta ng Nazareno” in Quiapo as a testament to this. The 2008 data said, close to 2 million people participated in this. Now is this also a miracle? Not to mention the pickpocketing, injuries and deaths caused by the commotion.

    The number of people who paid homage to Cardinal Kim is 400,000-500,000. Now is this number amazing? To the point that we are calling it as a “miracle”???

    Lets do a history check, and lets see if this number is really amazing.

    1969- Indian politician Annadurai’s funeral gathered 15 million people from all walks of life.

    1975- Egyptian singer Uhmm Kulthum died. 2-4 million mourners attended the funeral.

    1979- Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran died. Number of mourners, close to 11 million.

    1995- World Youth Day in Manila- 4 million participants. I was also there ( as a youth 🙂 ) out of curiosity. And i heard some of the Vatican treasures will be on display at the Metropolitan Museum (i saw it) so im very glad it happened.

    2004- Funeral of FPJ. Close to 2 million people attended the event. Irregardless of religion, sex and social status.

    2005- Funeral of John Paul II. 2-4 million people attended the funeral. Irregardless of religion. But im sure 90-95pct Catholics.

    2007- 70 million Hindu pilgrims went to Allahabad, India to celebrate a religious event.

    2009- Inauguration of Barack Obama as President. 2 million supporters attended. (Irregardless of religion, sex and social status)

    and many many more.

    The point is, any person regarded as a celebrity whether he is a pope, a tyrant, a cardinal, politician, actor etc will almost always have hundreds of thousands of people attending their funeral rites. Its perfectly normal. People will go there for various personal reasons.

    Another thing is that some people tend to judge and evaluate this event as well as any other “miraculous” event (lets say a cloud formation forming an image of Mother Mary or a piece of dirt in a wall that looks like Jesus Christ) with a biased perception on the basis of them being religious therefore close minded.

    Peace.

  7. derwent says:

    oh for me i’m talking about Koreans, not comparing it to any historical event or any other celebrities of other countries, etc… have Koreans mourned like this before? considering their society and culture…

    you know very well how filipinos are when it comes to people or things they idolize… and who take advantage of such events anyway so they could fool their “neighbor”… and also, you know how the media back home hype such events.. it would only draw the devotees, curious, and of course, those who would like to take advantage…

    what is your definition of miracle in the first place? nora aunor’s himala? or walang himala? of course, you dont know what it is… you didn’t experience it yet in your daily life…

    i even said all walks of life, from all religious affiliations…

    read with your heart and mind, not with your eyes and statistical data…

    peace…

  8. arvinsign says:

    –of course you do. Have Koreans mourned like that before? how about the death of Kim Il Sung? Koreans are Koreans irregardless whether they are from the South or the North.

    and is it not appropriate to view this phenomenon more of as a practice due to religious conviction (Christian Koreans) rather than culture ( Koreans as Koreans themselves)? I know some non Christians went there to attend, but on what proportion?

    If youre talking about how amazing it is considering the Korean culture, then look at the numbers again. Seoul is one of the biggest metropolitan cities in the world, with over 23 million people. Now why do u think the numbers who attended didnt even reached 2 million? considering that big population of Seoul. There are at least 5 million Catholics all over Korea (and probably half of which is in Seoul). Maybe they dont care at all. Now is that amazing? Well maybe for you.

    “you know very well how filipinos are when it comes to people or things they idolize… and who take advantage of such events anyway so they could fool their “neighbor”… and also, you know how the media back home hype such events.. it would only draw the devotees, curious, and of course, those who would like to take advantage…”

    Isn’t this a worldwide phenomenon and not limited to us only pinoys??

    How sure are you im taking advantage of that event (if u are referring to my attendance of the WYD)? Isn’t it that the reason why they displayed the Vatican Treasures in a MUSEUM is that for everybody to see? I attended the World Youth Day since first, i deserve it, and every youth from every high school and university received some sort of invitation right? Second, its not a religious event. Now is that taking advantage? I dont know what to say.

    The case in the Philippines in terms of media hype is the same here, and the same in many other countries. If someone will look at things more objectively then the world will be a better place.

    “what is your definition of miracle in the first place? nora aunor’s himala? or walang himala? of course, you dont know what it is… you didn’t experience it yet in your daily life…”


    Since you are asking me, ill define it. Miracle for me is an illusion as well as delusion. visual and psychological perception gone wrong. Brought about by fear from being punished forever in hell, and fear alone itself.

    Thats the same tool used by the Catholic Spaniards, to turn the whole country of Moslems and Pagans into a country that can be easily controlled using “god” as a tool. Its the same technique used by Constantine to turn the whole Roman Empire (with many christian revolts) into an empire of God, called the Holy Roman Empire. Its simply a military tactic.

    “read with your heart and mind, not with your eyes and statistical data…”

    – ideal? yes (and its sweet)? practical and logical? NO.

    We may have different beliefs, but im glad you are standing for it. Thats cool.

    Cheers

  9. jehan says:

    no sense talking to someone who didnt study religion…

    worst and twisted description of miracle of one who doesnt know what he’s talking about..

    one miracle though is that he’s made in the image and likeness of God not of whom he advocates for…

  10. arvinsign says:

    its unfair to say that i didnt study religion, and that i dnt know what im saying. We have a different way of interpreting things. What i am referring to is the belief in miracles as well as other lies that religious groups made and spread. The belief in the existence of god is a different thing.

    “no sense talking to someone who didnt study religion…”
    – Does that mean if you studied religion, then you will be more enlightened? Untrue.

    The thing is, the more you study about these things, the more you will know that theres something wrong in the religion that you grew up with. If you will read the bible and the bible alone then i can understand why your opinion is like that. But there are so many books out there. Take your pick.

    “worst and twisted description of miracle of one who doesnt know what he’s talking about” – im not surprised with your reaction. But again, as far as i know im very OBJECTIVE when i made my statements. Because thats the right way to think when you are conversing with someone, otherwise its a waste of time. Its obvious that your faith is affecting your every word, i can feel hatred in that. Try to be more objective. If you can lay down some facts (since you assume i dont know anything) then its better. I respect you and whatever religion you have. But lets have a fruitful and intelligent discussion instead of hatred. Lets set aside our personalities and biases, and discuss in the right way. Can we?

    “1miracle though is that he’s made in the image and likeness of God not of whom he advocates for…”

    –Read your bible well. and think..then provide some facts here. I dont want to argue on anyone or about anything that is based on “faith” (assumption that something exists”. One thing is sure, im willing to change my mind if later on i will find some new facts. Ill embrace any religion that will answer my questions. Being moral and being religious are 2 different things. pls take note of that(in case someone will assume im evil)

    Its not difficult to figure out the reasons why we still see millions of people during the Nazareno feast in Quaipo. Its basically the same reasons why “cult” and other religious extremists exists. The culprit is human ignorance and false idolatry.

    I like it when some people says that its not “religion” that will save you. I believe in that. I think thats partly true. Unfortunately, most of us think the other way. Its sad that after thousands of years of civilization resulting to great advances in astronomy, physics, biology, history and relevant fields, many people still chose to be blind. I dont know if its a case of inability to perceive technical things or are they just too religious.

    Many catholics and christians in the Philippines are actually starting to learn that theres something wrong with their doctrines. But the problem is FEAR. Fear from being a social outcast. You can also include the pressure from your family as well as from your pastor or parish priest.

    Christians will probably think that Greek Mythology as well as Scandinavian, Hindu, Shinto, Mayan are nothing but piece of idealogical crap. Why? Because most of these beliefs does not reflect what their bible says. Especially the existence of multiple gods (polytheism). Now thats whati called bias (or lunacy perhaps). These beliefs are the same with our local pinoy mythology. Like we came from a molded clay put into an oven, or that our great great ancestors came from a big bamboo pole. So whats the difference with the idea of creation from the Bible? its all the same. Stories.

    God may or may not exist. Thats an open statement. Im willing to change my views and i hope everybody will. But one thing is CERTAIN and TRUE. That “god” is being misrepresented by the corrupt churches, religious hierarchies, non sense religious traditions and a piece of “literature” called the Bible.

    Peace.

    If you want to object to my personal views, ill appreciate if you will provide some “facts”.

    I hope to hear the opinion of others.

  11. lizzie says:

    i think “religion” is the most debatable topic on earth and Jesus as the most controversial person who has walked on earth…(HE will still come again!^^)

    i am making this comment not to pick on someone..i just want to share what i know..and what i believe..

    i believe in the Holy Trinity…i believe in heaven and hell…i believe in the authenticity of the Bible(2 Tim 3:16)

    i do believe on miracles esp stated in the Bible..however, i agree that it is hard to quantify & qualify any other “miracles” of this modern day..that’s why the Catholic church is very cautious about labelling events/apparition as an authentic miracle…if we go back to the Bible, in the book of Exodus(Ex 5-8), when God commanded Moses to show the pharaoh miraculous signs and wonders to intercede for the Israelites to be freed from bondage, it was noted that the pharaoh’s magicians also did the same-until it came to the 3rd plague that they couldn’t duplicate it anymore…this only means that the adversary can make use of things or events that could take our eyes from authentic ones..

    and i have no question in paying respect to a dead person-whether he has influenced his country and people…it is just the same as paying respect to a simple Joe…however, if it becomes like a form of worship then that is a problem…you might as well read on Acts 10:25-26 when Cornelius fell down on his face and worshipped Peter, that the latter said, “stand up; i myself am also a man.” i guess there is a tendency for us to do this act..not just worshipping people but also things…and we tend to forget that we worship the creation more than ( or much more!) the Creator…

    and it is true that church history is not that “pure and holy”…there were so many “skeletons in the closet” so to speak…and i refute to say that the Bible only exposes good and pleasurable things…the Bible exposes every kinds of sin there is…and the characters in the Bible were not perfect either (except for Jesus, of course!)…moses was a murderer, jacob was a deceiver, david was an adulterer, peter betrayed Jesus, and saul (who later became Paul) persecuted a lot of Jesus’ followers…so this clearly states that all have sinned and fall short (Romans 3:23) and it is only by the grace of God that we can be saved and made new…not because of our works!And this triggered the Reformation movement..

    i also agree that religion cannot save us…when we come face to face with God, He wont ask us which denomination did we belong nor will He ask us about our standing in society for we are all the same in His eyes…

    the philippines is predominantly catholic…i dont know if it is a boon or a bane^^…although i believe that there are a lot of practices and traditions which are uncalled for and not stated nor observed in the Bible…i think we need to review again the 1st 4 commandments of God in the 10 commandments…and Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No One comes to the Father except through Me.”(John 14:6)

    i believe that there are also people who still wont believe in God…well, there is nothing i can do about it…that’s the main reason why God gave us “free will”…He doesnt want to make us like robots^^

    lastly, i believe that one BIG miracle that doesnt need authentication by any governing body is when someone re-commits his life unto God and to God alone!!

    call me crazy, but i’d rather be crazy for this because i know that there are so many things (specially our existence)which science could NOT explain…nor it will ever be explained!!

  12. arvinsign says:

    thats what i called “facts”. I commend the poster for making such. Yes i agree its debatable, but still this can be discussed openly and nicely and best without hatred. Its nice to share what you know and what you believe, we might be different on so many aspects but we can learn from each other.

    Ist hard for me to accept anything from the Bible. For me the Bible is a piece of literature in the same way as my favorite book of all time “War and Peace” by Leo Tolstoy, written by man, subject to mistakes as well as wrong translations. Anyone who knows how the Bible started, knows that there were lots of problems encountered by the early scribes when they tried to translate the bible into another language. Try to imagine the Bible translated from the language of the Jews (Aramaic), Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, to Spanish, English etc. Now what is the problem? The problem is many (not all) religious groups interprets the Bible verbatim. This is the root of all confusion and it resulted to the sprouting of so many sects. If everybody knows the Reformation Movement, thats my point. The classical story of Martin Luther is i think the best example of this. Does the Vatican listen to this? Read the story i mentioned and you will know. The poster sure knows about this, unfortunately most people dont. If all people will have a background check of their religious groups history and will not be blinded by fear, the world will be a different place to live in. No more non-sense wars, no more quarelling between sects, No more bombings at Gaza, no more terrorist suicide bombers, no more civilian deaths, no more crazy rituals, equal treatment between men and women etc……I dont think its blasphemy if all people will just do a little reading (actually more) and investigate about the origins of their religion. Its a very long list but grab any history book or surf the internet and ask yourselves with the following questions:

    1) Origin of the Bible and Christianity. How many books in all? Is it complete? What are these “Nag Hammadi” scrolls? Gnostic Gospels??Who are they?Are they real? Is the New Testament Complete? Where are the missing pages of life of Jesus Christ from adolescent to a few years before his crucifixion??

    2) How did Christianity started and developed its current doctrines? What are these Nicean Councils? Who are the Crusaders? Whats their purpose? Why Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor? What does it mean “antipope”? How is a pope elected anyway? Who made the list in “arvinsigns fave popes”? How about…
    Pope Leo VII (936-9)? Pope John VII (955-64)? Pope John XIII (965-72)? Pope Paul II (1467-71)? Are you not curious how these holy Popes died? They are supposed to be descendants of Peters and represent the holiest of holies! for gods sake. And one of my other favorite…Pius XII.

    How about the so called “Spanish Inquisition? who are they? are they supposed to be beatified because they served the pope and the church well????

    The list is so long. Haays

    Btw The story of the 10 plagues is one story that bothers me. I want to believe that God exists, but not the same God as portrayed in this book called the Bible. I will quote Richard Dawkins when he described this god as “the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Now what are my thoughts about this? I know people will hate me, but i think he has a point. The God portrayed in the OT is nothing but an insecure God. I want to believe in a loving, forgiving and just God. A god who will take care and love anyone irregardless of race/religion (jew and non-jew), gender etc. Does it exist? I hope so. Ask any INC or Mormons or JW’s, SDA’s, Moonies etc..as well as non christian groups..they will all say “unless you join us, enjoy the fires of hell”. How sweet.

    “”i believe that there are also people who still wont believe in God…well, there is nothing i can do about it…that’s the main reason why God gave us “free will”…He doesnt want to make us like robots^^””

    Freewill is controversial. A famed Physicist once wrote, “If god is the most powerful, omnipotent, alpha and the omega being in all, then he has all the power to know what will happen to you, where you will go, or what you will choose even before u were born…Therefore, if your future can be known even by one being and not you…where is “freewill” in that?

    If god doesnt want to make us robots, then why (going back to the story of the 10 plagues) “controlled” the decision (by making him decide not to let the Jews out) of the Pharaoh so that he (God) can bring out the next plague?

    Exodus 10:1
    Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them”

    Whew. Scary.

    “”call me crazy, but i’d rather be crazy for this because i know that there are so many things (specially our existence)which science could NOT explain…nor it will ever be explained!!””

    — Of course youre not crazy. And i will not call you crazy either. Ive met many people that i can describe as “crazier” though. You are more subtle than them since you can provide facts and you have accepted some mistakes of your church. As far as i know, i can say ur fair though i dont agree with most of your beliefs.

    I dont know of anything that science cannot explain. Everything has a least a scientific explanation. The only problem is there are many “schools of thoughts” when it comes to explaining things. Contrary to most what people perceive though that many things in life cannot be explained by science. There is actually an explanation, the big problem is many people with viewpoints like this are blind when it comes to interpreting what science is. If one phenomenon for example will be explained by a scientist with a complex mathematical formula or equation,or a complicated physical phenomenon or subatomic interaction then most people who dont understand this will dismissed the explanation as “rubbish”. And so the story goes. Now the argument will continue until the religious person will finally say “See you cant explain, thats the power of God”. End of discussion, how fair.

    What about our existence which for you cant be explained by science? I have an explanation for human existence (matched with current data, scientific reports etc). Its up to you if you will accept it, i hope u will but i doubt.

    Just dont ask me which comes first, chicken or egg? 🙂

    Cheers

  13. lizzie says:

    in the beginning God…

    it is true that many doubt on the authenticity of the Bible…we can traced that back in the book of Genesis chapter 3 when the serpent questioned Eve that caused her to doubt and that she wont die…that was the 1st lie in the Bible…Satan is a liar, a liar of it(John8:44)…the enemy is good at misquoting God’s Word…you can take a look at Luke 4 when satan tried to tempt Jesus that he even quoted psalm 91 but left a few words out…that is his subtle way of misleading people…he will cause people to doubt and in so doing when we are not contented with things that we see or read, we transfer God’s authority to ourselves…we tend to choose what to and not to believe…how many times should God tell us until we believe??

    there are 2 basic schools of manuscripts as to where the Bible came from…these are the alexandrian text which came out of alexandria,egypt and the Received text or the majority text which came from the church of antioch considered as Paul’s home church…from the majority text or textus receptus came out the king james version of the Bible while the manuscripts that came out of alexandria was accepted by the Roman Catholic…alexandria, egypt was the center of gnosticism…they started even before the death of John the beloved apostle…gnosticism pretends to have ‘higher wisdom’…they speak disparagingly of the disciples for these disciples are mere fishermen..their basic thought is that all material is evil therefore God couldnt develop the material and physical world for God is pure…and they believe that Jesus was a phantom…they alter the Scripture to meet their own view thus mutilating the Scripture…during the time of Constatine, he wanted the Scripture in the latin language to counteract the Textus Receptus influence and he want to “marry” the church and the state (in keeping his position) thus he commissioned Jerome(early Catholic church father) to bring forth the Latin vulgate from the alexandrian manuscript…in 1881, there was an order to revise the King James version of the Bible…it was just made to update the language and not doing any alterations(removing the “Thee’s and the Thou’s)…in the revised committee, two of the men were strongly in favor of the alexandrian text..they were brooke foss westcott and fenton john anthony hort…they pushed their work before the revision started thus creating their own westcott and hort translation of the Bible which sprang most modern translations..that was their own translation but the King James version was left in the hands of 47 men with knowledge of all languages..martin luther’s translation in German came from the Received text and most transformers used this translation which eventually give way to a great revival transformation of the church…in the westcott and hort translation, they made 5,337 changes in the King James version…these deletions are particularly about Jesus’ deity and philosophy…to name a few, compare Matthew 1:25, Matthew 8:29, in the NIV and NKJV….it is a disheartening fact the the enemy is always on the move misleading God’s people by questioning HIs Word under the covering of “scholarship”….thus making many people the final authority in our faith and actions…
    and there are “false teachers” on the loose…
    if we consider the Bible as just a historical book, then why is it that many are not interested to read it but quick to judge??…reading it from beginning to end will show that what happened in the Old testament is relevant to the revelations in the New testament..and many prophecies in the Old testament came true in the New testament…i encourage you to read the book of Isaiah…
    another thing, the ark of noah was found in mount ararat which is now in the country of turkey…there were many expeditions sent to study it but later the turkish government put a stop to it…why??..because turkey is predominantly a moslem country…were they afraid that something will be revealed contrary to what they believe in??..
    hardening the heart of the pharaoh…God has His way of having His own glory which we oftentimes want to steal from Him thus we oftentimes push on this so-called ‘beatifications’….we always want to glorify ourselves…isnt it glorious to see how He parted the Red sea and His people walked on dry grounds than the pharoah releasing His people at a mere plague which his magician can also match??of course, many has debated on this..
    are we also behaving like the pharaoh to this day since we also harden our hearts to accept Him for who He is(Heb 3:7-8)??
    Science will always disproves God’s Word and His creation…try to check the book of Job(38:31-32)…God mentioned a constellation of stars which were not discovered from the time it was written…probably science can offer an explanation of human existence but can they mass reproduce it??..science can just offer explanations but not the work itself…
    isnt it nice to see how we can discuss things this way rather than there is someone controlling our thoughts??if you love someone, can you feel being loved back if you are in full control of them??will it be a meaningful relationship then??
    i recommend anyone to listen to Pastor Chuck Smith of calvary chapel…he can give a good exposition of the Bible…a very good Bible teacher and pastor that i look up to^^
    i know one thing for sure: “Jesus loves me this i know, for the Bible tells me so……”

  14. arvinsign says:

    “”if we consider the Bible as just a historical book, then why is it that many are not interested to read it but quick to judge??…””

    ——Thanks for your bits and pieces of history. The history of the Bible that you mentioned is different from the history that I know. Im sorry but i think yours is not comprehensive and a bit selected. We can discuss it more if you want, just say so.

    Now the question is what references we used? Not to mention how many? I can assure you ive read the Bible, the historical references published by the church, plus books written by scholars not in any way affiliated with the church, in short unbiased and fair authors. Maybe thats the key point there.

    “”the ark of noah was found in mount ararat which is now in the country of turkey…there were many expeditions sent to study it but later the turkish government put a stop to it…why??..because turkey is predominantly a moslem country…were they afraid that something will be revealed contrary to what they believe in??..””

    — its good you pointed this out. Im sure you know who is the man behind this expedition. Is he an authority to this kind of work? Sort of an archeologist scientist? Is he fair?? His name is Daniel Mc Givern. A wealthy businessman by profession, and a CHRISTIAN activist and member of the Hawaii Christian Coalition. If you will read their work what they said is that they think its the ark but they need further investigation. Now a group of SCIENTISTS from Kosmopoisk Scientific Research Center in Russia disproved that claim. They found out that these so called remains of the ark were just natural formations as a result of volcanic activity. The news about the Noah’s ark in Mt Ararat is nothing but a media hype ballooned by christian fanatics. If another group of religious people for example will see a big chunk of wood in any mountains like Mt. Everest, K2, Kilimanjaro, Mont Blanc or even Mt Banahaw or Mt Makiling etc they will immediately arrive that that is Noah’s ark.

    “”hardening the heart of the pharaoh…God has His way of having His own glory which we oftentimes want to steal from Him thus we oftentimes push on this so-called ‘beatifications’…””

    Im just reacting to your notion of freewill when you said the purpose is not to make us robots so that we can exercise our “own” will. Obviously interfering with the mind and heart of the pharaoh to show his power does not reflect what you are saying. The god mentioned in that story have EGO problems. Is he fair? Well favoritism is surely not my fave word. Again where is the free will??

    “”isnt it glorious to see how He parted the Red sea and His people walked on dry grounds than the pharoah releasing His people at a mere plague which his magician can also match??””

    —-Isnt it glorious how many people died and murdered because that GOD of the Old Testament called for the Israelites to construct a genocide of the Canaanite people during the Israelites conquest of the land??? How sweet. Now ask yourself a question. Why do you think the Jews now living in Israel have a thousand years WAR with their neighbors?? Because they think its GOD’s will. Why do terrorist bombers kill civilians? Because for them its a HOLY thing. The world is really awesome 🙁

    “”are we also behaving like the pharaoh to this day since we also harden our hearts to accept Him for who He is(Heb 3:7-8)??””

    — You know its not a good analogy. Come to think of it, assuming for argument’s sake that i am using my free will to harden my heart and not accept him. It would be unfair to the pharaoh because that GOD hardened his heart and he have no other choice, unlike me. Does it mean that some of us have free wills and some dont? Or is it that GOD is also hardening my heart so he can SHOW again his power and boost his ego? How cute.

    “”Science will always disproves God’s Word and His creation…try to check the book of Job(38:31-32)””

    —I will appreciate if you can cite examples (factual). Because we will never reach agreement if we are always pointing and going back to your ONE and ONLY reference. I can also recommend more than a hundred titles dealing with History and Science and its up to you to reconcile it with your Bible. Ive done my part, ive read the Bible and ive read the other books too. That makes me NEUTRAL and UNBIASED.

    “”God mentioned a constellation of stars which were not discovered from the time it was written…probably science can offer an explanation of human existence but can they mass reproduce it??..science can just offer explanations but not the work itself…””

    My Dear, the whole universe is soooo BIGGGGG. The numbers of stars in the whole universe probably would reach to 1X10 raise to the power of googol (100 zeroes). What im saying is, its just natural for zillions of stars and constellations to be unnamed until now. Stars will apppear only at night once the photons from that star reached earth and hit your retina and processed by your brain as an image. The fact is majority of these stars are still invisible because of the vast distance the photons need to travel. If for example the Andromeda Galaxy will explode at this very moment, it will take 2.5 million earth years for the explosion to be visible on us. Otherwise it will always look normal. And 2.5 million years is way way earlier than the estimated time of the Old Testament.

    “”probably science can offer an explanation of human existence but can they mass reproduce it??.””

    — What do you mean mass reproduce? You mean mass reproduce humans? Theoretically yes it is possible. Practically? NO. The goal of science is to preserve life and not to mass reproduce them. If you dont believe in evolution and the power of molecular biology and genetic engineering, then i can understand. In case you are not aware of, artificial life (not human of course) had been made already in the laboratory. It was published in a peer reviewed scientific journal.

    “”isnt it nice to see how we can discuss things this way rather than there is someone controlling our thoughts??if you love someone, can you feel being loved back if you are in full control of them??will it be a meaningful relationship then??””

    — Dear you are so romantic 🙂 Of course i agree. But again, how about the Pharaoh in you story..?? someone controlled his thoughts. Poor him.

    “”i recommend anyone to listen to Pastor Chuck Smith of calvary chapel…he can give a good exposition of the Bible…a very good Bible teacher and pastor that i look up to^^
    i know one thing for sure: “Jesus loves me this i know, for the Bible tells me so……”””

    —-Sure ill try to look that up. Im open minded. Im not a hater or something. I just want to learn and find whats the truth.

    Since my friend here is giving a recommendation, ill try also to give my own (its a list).

    Heres mine:

    1) READDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD. Explore your library. There are so many other books other than the Bible. If you want the Bible, read as many versions as you want then compare. Im sure the SDA will stand for their Bible, the Catholics with theirs, the JWs, the Mormons, the INC with theirs respectively…….

    2) THINK and EXPLORE. Try to find answers to your questions.

    3) EXAMINE your church and your beloved pastors and priests. Jose Rizal wrote the Noli Me Tangere and made a character “Maria Clara” which is the illegitimate daughter of a priest. Why did Rizal do that?? Think….

    4. OPEN up your minds. This is difficult for most i know.

    5. and most importantly live a MORAL but not religious life. For me its a lot better. Religion is the root of animosity between many sects, countries etc. The root of great WARS and terrorist acts. Make Love and Charity more fundamental than FAITH. Help your neighbors and feed the needy without preaching.

    and last “exercise” your free will. That is if you have 🙂

  15. arvinsign says:

    i dont want to go the details so i refused to go over it in my previous post. But i think i need to ask some questions here based on the history u wrote:

    “during the time of Constantine, he wanted the Scripture in the latin language to counteract the Textus Receptus influence and he want to “marry” the church and the state (in keeping his position) thus he commissioned Jerome(early Catholic church father) to bring forth the Latin vulgate from the alexandrian manuscript”

    How can this be? isnt it that the Textus Receptus (15th century) was made later than the Vulgate of Jerome (5th century)?

    Isnt it that it was Pope Damasus who commissioned Jerome to write it and Constantine has nothing to do with it? and that Jerome revised it from an old latin version and improved it rather than a translation from the Alexandrian manuscripts (which is Greek)?

    By the way, the MAJORITY TEXT and TEXTUS RECEPTUS are not the same manuscript as incorrectly pointed out in your previous post.

    Its also nice to point out too about who Constantine is and why he converted the empire into Christianity via the Edict of Milan. History books will tell you the fact, while books written by church scholars are biased and twisted history. Nobody in the church will highlight in their books how Constantine treated the Jews during that time. The law is this ” Any Jew that will be found guilty of preaching and converting a roman christian to Judaism shall be BURNED ALIVE”. Constantine signed that law. and guess what, he is a SAINT (at least for the eastern catholic/christian churches). Known as St. Constantine, and there was even a feast for him.

    What i want to emphasize is that during that time, there were several groups of Christians fighting each other, and that Constantine pacified them using an iron fist that resulted to bloodshed. Read the history of the Ecumenican councils and how they define “heresies”. The Crusades, The Inquisition etc. The history went on until the present and its still as dirty as it can be.

    The reason i pointed out the “Gnostic Gospels” is to let people realize that there are so many scholars, books, versions of all the books that they see now in their Bible. Now who selected which one should fit and should not? Is it GOD? NO. Its the beloved, politically driven church. The bible that we have now is a CENSORED and INCOMPLETE one.

    “”it is a disheartening fact the the enemy is always on the move misleading God’s people by questioning HIs Word under the covering of “scholarship”….thus making many people the final authority in our faith and actions…””

    Im pretty sure what you mean by the word “enemy” are the people who dont share the same religious group as you are. Who dont share the same beliefs. It could be me and the other people with a different religious background (like Catholics, since you seem to a “born again” christian). I can understand that. I respect that.

    “””and there are “false teachers” on the loose…”””
    — This i agree 100%. But the question is how to figure out? Some may say its the guy shouting in Luneta Park, maybe its Joel Osteen, maybe its Eli Soriano, maybe its the Pope, maybe its Manalo, maybe its the hindu preacher, maybe its the islamic imam, maybe its your pastor, maybe its Pastor Chuck Smith..?? The list will go on. Bickering s as well as wars between religions will never stop. Thats human ignorance and stupidity to the highest magnitude. Love your neighbors and dont treat anyone as enemy even if your preacher tells u so. And the world will be a better place.

    Peace

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